[Music]
I
[Music]
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gri a
Kremlin advisor is the one joai always
coveted as a Young Man our first guest
was that and much more and even more so
now he's a former special adviser to
Russia's National Security Council and
he's now seeking to highlight the
weaknesses of the Western war on terror
and to show what can and should be done
instead he's our old friend Alexander
nekrasov Alexander welcome back thank
you very much uh this approximate reason
for this conversation is that the more
Russia is successful in defeating this
fanatic islamist
extremism the less credit Russia seems
to get for it and the more the West
doubles down on a policy a strategy
which has very clearly failed I can see
that clearly you can see it even more
clearly with your experience tell us
well first of all Russia as you know
George was a victim of um Islamic
terrorism for a long time and Russia was
warning the West ever since the first
Chan war and uh contined during the
second war in chich that the West should
be very careful in supporting some of
these extremists and allowing them to
actually organize some you know NOS
Charities and operate on their own
territory and Russia has been had been
warning different countries and saying
look you are helping these
people uh these
rebels in shna this will come back to
honu now I must tell you that when I was
the special advisor to the National
Security Council of Russia which is by
the way part of the Kremlin basically
it's the same thing uh I was dealing
with the church in war and one of my
sort of Adventures if you can p it put
it this way was meeting some of the
leaders of the rebels who lived in the
west and talking to them about the
possibility of some sort of negotiation
or trying to to end the conflict and
what they told me was remarkable they
were quite open with me talking about
who supported them they openly said that
they had the support of the CIA for
example they they they had the support
of some of the uh countries of the West
and they also named some nations in the
Middle East who were channeling money to
them arms and helping them and that was
quite remarkable and obviously the
Russians later pass this information to
the west and um some of these groups for
example like the Muslim Brotherhood now
this group is now banned in Russia it is
banned in some of the um countries of
the gulf but this group is openly
operating across the the Western world
and the Russians are again stressing now
that this group should be banned in the
west as well because it it presents a
uh to to to the West itself
unfortunately nobody listens to that and
I think the problem is that there there
are two problems currently for the West
one of them uh of this problems is that
the West is finding itself in some sort
of denial you know when it's fighting
this Terror because it doesn't really
have a
strategy uh of how it's going to tackle
this problem for example they talk about
oh look
radicalization you know dases or Isis is
supposedly running such a wonderful well
wonderful in inverted Commerce effective
effective campaign of recruitment no it
doesn't it's campaign is very primitive
it's just that the problem is that
nobody finds a way of tackling this
campaign of stopping this campaign of
going after the so-called Nos and
charity
which are helping and funding this and
so on and I think this is one point the
second point is which I mentioned but
it's it's sort of highlight being
highlighted Now by this uh conflict
between a group of Arab countries and
Qatar now these countries are saying
that Qatar is funding extremism
supporting the Muslim Brotherhood and
creating problems for the general world
now we are witnessing basically a very
serious development that some of the
Nations within that camp are realizing
that the problem is getting out of
control and that is a good thing on the
one hand on the other hand I think uh
attempts to sort of interfere and say
you know no no no don't forget this stop
this Kuwait is a wonderful Qatar is a
wonderful you are all wonderful you know
stop this won't help as well we have to
be pragmatic they have to be pragmatic
they have to understand somebody
somewhere is helping these people and
they present a danger and this is why at
the moment there is a certain lack of
any coherent strategy to fight this
terrorism well uh it's a false dichotomy
in my view because Saudi Arabia is the
primary Fountain Head of extremism
ideological theological Fountain Head
and financial and it's true that they're
supporting a different group of head
cutting he eaters in Syria to cut but
both of them are up to their neck in the
blood that is being shed by these uh
extremists but I would take you back if
I may uh to what I think is fundamental
in this you must defeat Isis and alqaeda
on the Battlefield You Must Destroy them
that's necessary but it's not sufficient
because it'll all come back again in a
different form if you don't beat the
ideological appeal of these people
primitive though is they have an
ideological appeal they have yes but um
I don't know whether it's ideological
appeal because I think what these people
are doing is that they're using methods
of recruitment which have been basically
used in many
in in history by other groups for
example they are appealing to lonely you
know people who think they are you know
secluded nobody wants them and so they
say come to us we have a purpose we have
a purpose exactly you'll be part of the
family you'll be part of us we will
support you we will protect you what can
be done necessary to defeat them on the
battlefield but not sufficient but
Western countries are actually trying to
stop them being defeated on the
battlefield they're they're trying to
stop Russia and Syria and Iraq from
defeating these people on the
battlefield well that's another issue
you you're right to point this out now I
don't think that they are doing is just
of like oh let's save dases you know
Isis uh let's let them leave and and
operate I don't think that's the
strategy I think the strategy here first
of all is to
obstruct everything that Syria syri
Syrian government Iran and Russia are
doing it's more a war against them yes
rather than against Isis and that is why
it creates this impression that they
actually trying to save it it is part of
the of the policy and uh the problem I I
think personally and this comes from my
experience with the Chan um uh
situation is that b finishing off on
them on the battlefield is you're
correct completely correct is not enough
at all but cutting off the
funding the arming the training the
support is crucial and this is why I
think that you you are correct in saying
that you know there are different
players in the game Who support them
right but the problem is that this
battle has to start somewhere and even
if you you say that Saudi Arabia yes is
also involved and Kuwait is also
involved and so on I think it's still
worthwhile to let them start the process
and Qatar I know it's on the receiving
end but probably it's worthwhile so that
it stops doing well as as a Kissinger
one said it's a Pity that uh they both
can't lose uh in this uh confrontation
that's my view only time for one more
question this all uh flows from the
policy that the West first developed and
binski and Carter first developed of my
enemy's enemy is my friend they
developed it in Afghanistan to destroy
the Soviet Union they were ready to arm
and fund people and they paid for it
they paid for it a big time it's like
they never read Frankenstein's monster
at least not to the end uh there's no
sign though is there of the West falling
out of love with that amoral
policy well unfortunately we are not
witnessing that and um you know I I I'm
looking at the way uh Trump is behaving
now although he you know what I what I
find absolutely amazing about Trump is
that he actually won on a ticket that he
will improve relations with Russia
exactly he's now trying to pretend that
he won because he Russia needs to be
restrained I don't understand this to
please the Liberals no but the the
because he's afraid of the Liberals but
but the logic is disappearing because he
was voted for because he said what's
wrong with being friends with Russia yes
and now this is part of that by the way
what you are talking about that policies
that change when they feel like it when
when they feel it benefits them and so
on and I think their war on terror is
not working because changing your views
and one day saying oh Russia we love you
yes let's fight with Isis and and
tomorrow say no no we don't like you and
you're not doing anything and and and we
are going to fight against you that's
why it doesn't work the strategy means
you stick to it throughout thick and
thin whereas they change their mind all
the time and Trump by the way and the
some of the other leaders of the Western
World they're exactly the same yes well
we need to take this show on the road
you and me because unfortunately we've
run out of time Alexander nekrasov
thanks for joining us on the Sputnik
thank you coming up after the break one
of the greatest men ever to walk the
earth certainly one of America's
greatest Sons Paul Robson problem is not
a lot of people know that you will see
you next
[Music]
welcome back to Sputnik Paul Robson was
one of America's greatest Sons indeed
one of the greatest men ever to walk on
God's green earth trouble is as they say
not a lot of people know that perhaps
especially in America we not content
with harassing Robeson to his grave he
is effectively airbrushed out of popular
history yet once he was a king a
Colossus towering literally over the
worlds of sport music film the stage and
international politics it says here that
he was 1.91 M tall but as I can't
translate that into real money I just
left it out he was though very very tall
none of this is ancient history there
are many people still alive today who
join the cry let ropes and sing when the
US in a cold war frenzy took away his
passport and effectively black listed
him off the stage and screen at one
stage he sank down a telephone line to a
packed audience in London same panr town
hall why that's the question I suppose
which will now be in the minds at least
of younger viewers to help answer it
we've got too aloko star of the stunning
oneman show that gatri and I both caught
this week in wesworth taraa theater tyo
thanks what was the main problem with
Robson that he was black or that he
wased
or because he was both because he was
both and because he was supremely
talented and Drew a huge crowd and um
that was that was a dangerous
combination tell us how big a star he
was uh I I'm aware of it because I'm a
lifelong uh fan but just for people who
are not try and compare him with someone
today I mean how big was he I say that
if you you imagine somebody as famous as
a performer as Mart um Michael
Jackson and throw in a
political activist I usually say like
George Galloway
actually um then you have Paul Robson so
if somebody can pull those huge crowds
and deliver a socialist message that is
very dangerous for the US dangerous just
take us back to the era in which this
danger was uh perceived what was going
on okay he was born in
1898 uh and he he burst onto the world
stage actually here in London in 1928
when he first performed in showboat in
which he first sang Old Man River and he
stopped the you know stopped the show
many times um and it was that during
that performance that he first met um
Welsh miners who were on strike and they
marched all the way from South Wales to
London to try and highlight their plight
and he met he heard them singing on the
street was drawn to them and heard their
story and um that's the first time he
realized that actually it seems you
don't have to be black to be exploited
by other people and that introduced him
to socialism and communism and he then
went to the Soviet Union a number of
times starting in
1934 uh but this was a man who was
growing as an international singing and
acting star embracing this socialist uh
politics at the same time and he
would sing in a concert and you know
break off you know between songs talk
about inequality in America so this is
pre Martin Luther King and marcol X this
man who was a huge star was already Yes
30 years at least was
already carrying the banner for equality
and justice not just for his people in
in the United States but white working
people in the United States he and his
wife Asanda and others were the first
people to form an organization called
the Council on African Affairs to
campaign for um freedom for South
Africans so they predated the anti-
aparted struggle by decades as well
decades the
additional problem for the power was
that he would have no truck with the
with the hatred of the Russian people on
the contrary he loved Russia and was
much loved in Russia very much on his
first visit he said uh for the first
time in my life I'm not a negro I'm a
human being I walk dignity I walk in
dignity very very powerful like a man
with a capital M that's
I he definitely was that and this added
to his problems with American power
didn't it very much so when I first read
his biography back in
1995 there was one part of it that I
said
wow and this has to be in my play this
this is actually what I thought had had
to be on stage on in the theater not
necessarily film and that was his
testimony uh before the house and
American Activities Committee in June
1952 so this is this African-American
man who has actually come is recovering
from some mental health uh breakdowns
and he goes he insists on going when he
subpoenaed and one of the questions he's
asked is why don't you go back to Russia
and he looked at this person and said
because my father is was a slave and my
people died to build this country and
I'm going to stay here and have a part
of it just like you and no fascist
minded people will will drive me from it
is that
clear I mean you're making me tingle and
almost making me uh cry yeah one of the
strange things is that he is not a part
of or at least as it looks from here you
may educate me on this he's not a part
of the black political iconography in
the United States and I figure that one
of the reasons for that was that he
insisted that oppression and
exploitation was actually not racially
specific you are right uh he was you
know one of the first examples of an
internationalist but I think um he is
not part of the iconography because of
the bad press the the way he was
portrayed by The Establishment and one
example you know we we in the biography
that I first read um there was a time
when Paul Robson was going to be
celebrated on his 65th birthday so this
would have been uh
1965
66 and the southern Christian Leadership
Council wanted to send a representative
to New York to be part of it and they
asked a young man called John
Lewis who is now a very
revered uh senator in the United States
Martin Luther King's right-and man uh
Joe you're going to represent us in uh
in New York to honor Paul Robson and he
said who's Paul
Robson so the point is that because he
was so dangerous and because he had been
tainted so badly with the
Communist uh brush um even the members
of the civil rights movement in the
United States the NAACP for example
denounced him wow because they felt that
in doing so he they would look
umal exactly exactly so it is I I read
somewhere that his attempted suicide
later in life was actually perhaps not
an attempted to attack that's coming
from the outside um well um was he that
dangerous no yes he was he was dangerous
there there there there are two I think
or three occasions in a 10-year period
in which a car in which he was being
driven I don't think he drove on three
occasions a wheel fell off the car while
it was in
motion but he did attempt suicide and it
is it was felt certainly by Paul Jr his
son that it was a result of him being
drugged
LSD there were a number of um activists
who actually did commit suicide as a
result of of that um so yeah I mean well
you've done so much to try and as it
were recover the memory uh of Paul
Robson this is uh We've appeared uh on
stage before together talking about uh
Robson uh what more can be done do you
think to make him the hero that
should be at least here where we have
some control over
events well it is I mean I'm pleased to
say that I I think the announcement was
made about three four years ago that
Steve McQueen he who directed 12 Years a
Slave uh is to do a movie oh wow about
Paul Robson now that has all gone quiet
but I would like to assume that it's
because negotiations are going on behind
the scenes with with robson's
family if and when that is done in the
hands of a a director like Steve McQueen
who has who has the support of people
like um harib Bella fonte uh that that I
think would be a wonderful boost to his
to his uh um his fame um and I would
love to get a part in that film maybe
even just cleaning the man's shoes
well I'm sure uh that uh Steve McQueen
uh does watch this show uh so let's hope
so and that we get some progress on that
movie meanwhile the play that you've
written and star in uh is on tour isn't
it across the country that's right I've
got one more night at the Tara Theater
tonight um and then after that I'm at
The boxton Fringe uh thereafter I'm at
the Edinburgh Fringe
uh I go I have another play called just
an ordinary lawyer which I'm also
touring I'm taking that to the US um in
August and so yeah I you know people can
find details on my website which is uh
Tao aluco andf
friends.com I'll be looking at that
myself afterwards call Mr Robson is the
play uh that we're pushing today but all
your work is really outstanding tle
thanks for joining us on SP thank you
well alas that's all we've got time for
today but you can stay in touch with us
on Facebook at Sputnik on Russia today
or on Twitter or Instagram at rtor
Sputnik but before we go here's tyo
singing of the incomparable Joe Hill
from his oneman show call Mr Robson it's
marvelous I dreamed I saw Jo Hill last
night alive as you and me
says I but Joe you're 10 years dead I
never died says
he I never died says
he the copper bosses killed you Joe they
shut you Joe says I takes more than guns
to kill a man says Joe I didn't
die says Joe I didn't
die Jo ain't dead he says to me Joel
ain't never
died where workers strike and
organize Jo Hill is at their
side I never
died says
he I
never
died
says he
[Laughter]
oh
[Music]